Saturday, June 26, 2010

Culinary school = getting a PhD in chemistry?

From a recent interview with Anthony Bourdain, a 28 year veteran of professional kitchens, where he's asked by a young caller about the possibility of becoming a professional chef (25:00, transcript done by me -- hope there aren't too many mistakes):
Caller: ...For the past 4 or 5 years, I have a huge passion for cooking, mostly just for family and friends. As the years go by, I've considered getting into it as a career myself. What would be your advice to break into the industry, would it be culinary school or jumping right into the kitchen and working my way up? 
Bourdain: Well, before you, uh, you're right on the age limit right about now. 27, 28, beyond that, it's going to be very, very, very tough for you, by the time you're trained up and ready to really work and make money in the industry. It's going to be late. You're practically Methuselah at 27. 
What I would definitely recommend before you quit your previous profession is work for free, if necessary or just get a few months, six months, in a very busy restaurant. Any busy restaurant, you know, get your butt kicked -- see if you really like it, before you spend money on culinary school. 
Because, no matter how good the culinary school, you're going to be rolling out of there and the best you can hope for is like a ten dollar an hour job for the first couple of years. You're not going to be paying back that student loan any time soon. So just make sure you love the business, that it's for you, that it's a passion, that you're willing to suffer for it and do without any kind of reasonable amount of money for quite some time.
Host: ...what do you tell young people thinking about getting into the kitchen as a professional chef? 
Bourdain: ...It's like rock'n'roll in the sense that you better just love playing rock'n'roll for playing rock'n'roll. If you think that you're going to be a star, as most any musician will tell you, that's not a reasonable expectation. 
Do it 'cause you love it. And most importantly, get out there and do it first, find out if the life is for you -- chances are, it's not. You'll know it after a few months in the business. And then, culinary school is a very worthwhile enterprise. 
So here's my question: how much is culinary school like graduate school in chemistry?

On the face of it, really, not much. Culinary school (so far as I understand) is shorter and you have to pay the tuition; it's rare (non-existent?) for graduate students in the sciences to need to pay tuition. Usually, they pay you. Salaries are different, too. If you're working for $10/hour with a master's degree in chemistry, friend, you're getting waaaay ripped off. But the long hours and the long time before you'll be making decent money? Yeah, that does sound like getting a doctorate in chemistry.

I think a significant difference between chemists and cooks is the concept of "doing it because you love it." I don't think chemists need to rely so much on that aspiration to replace the concept of a liveable wage after they're out of school. I hope not, anyway.

14 comments:

  1. One way culinary jobs are like chemistry is that they both have a link to the old mentoring / apprenticeship training method. In chemistry, people usually don't say, "I went to Harvard", they say "I worked for Corey". In the culinary world, you might say "I went to the CIA" but they probably also say "I worked for chef X". This is something that is very foreign to my friends who went to business school, for example, who identify themselves by the school and not by a particular professor.

    When I first started out in chemistry, part of the appeal of the field was that you could get a good job and make a good living, once you got out of school. But I'm not sure that's the case any more. After my history of multiple layoffs, I no longer tell students that. I say "do chemistry because you love it and because you couldn't imagine doing anything else, but don't do it because you expect to get a great job and keep it forever". We may not work for $10 per hour out of school, but you'll probably have stretches of unemployment, and you may have to search for a new job every couple of years and keep moving from city to city to find one. That may be the worst case scenario, but it seems to be the state of chemistry jobs these days.

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  2. ha ha ha ha ... the skills and work pace required for organic chemistry, I learned from washing dishes in the kitchen. Hell the hierarchy is almost identical. honestly ... I'm not really sure there IS a good reason to go into chemistry these days. It's unfortunate.

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  3. "If you're working for $10/hour with a master's degree in chemistry, friend, you're getting waaaay ripped off"
    Dude I know a MSc chemist in New Jersey who could only find work at WalMart. Do you think that pays more than $ 10/hour?

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  4. Very disheartening to read the comments on this post. Believe me, only the very best cooks make a lot of money. A lot of them work for nearly the same salary as chemists. They dont pay that much tuition fees though but probably get meals cooked by themselves! is that attractive?

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  5. I am not clear on what you are saying in the last paragraph as my take is that even a chemist should stay in chemistry as career path because they have some passion for doing it or in the end will turn out to of little value to themselves or others. While for chemists there are seemingly immediate prospects for getting better pay scale sooner relative to cooks/chefs if one desires there are probably many quicker and easier professions to accomplish that aim in less time and work that also are more transportable skills in a down market (many are legal too).

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  6. Hi, Anon1:20p:

    Bourdain's point was basically that the passion would have to sustain you during the time that the pay would not. I suspect that period of time (post-culinary school) would be measured in years, probably more than 5 years.

    My last paragraph was directed to the thought that the similar amount of time for chemists would be basically zero; that while some chemists are paid quite poorly, most chemists earn a healthily middle-class wage in industry.

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  7. chemjobber, time will tell. There is a hick up right now as far as job placement ... and I know way to many perma-docs for my comfort. On the one hand I can see things get better, I can also see them get worse. I know cooks and I know chemists, and really the pace, the expectations, the pressure, the long hours, the hierarchy, are virtually identical (at least in the academic setting.) The PI would be the head chef, the sui chefs would be the postdocs. Chef's as well as as scientists can ultimately be family breaking occupations, too many hours and a lot of needless pressure.

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  8. I agree with CJ's sentiment. I am in industry. All of my colleagues, from BS/MS to PhD are making decent money (i.e. not starving and/or struggling to make ends meet). I would say however that most folks go into chemistry because they have a knack for it or enjoy it. If you're getting a PhD in the hopes of becoming rich - you're probably going to wind up disappointed. That's not to say you can't have a very livable lifestyle (we do).

    I think the bigger issue at hand is making the jump from BS tech jobs in academia or post-docs to industry. Jobs are harder to come by these days (whole other topic of discussion). But, once you make the jump, the pay is much better. My worst days in industry are better than probably my best days in grad school. The much better pay helps as well.

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  9. "T" FYI: I have a doctorate in organic chemistry, and have not been able to land a regular job in the past three years. Decent money? On the contrary, no health insurance (Charity Care instead) and picking up what little money I earn by tutoring and adjuncting. Struggling to make ends meet is an understatement.

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  10. Anon9:21pm:

    Willing to be interviewed (via e-mail) about your situation? E-mail me at chemjobber -at- gmaildotcom.

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  11. I have a PhD in Organic Chemistry with postdoc, and sveral years ago graduated form the CIA, Hyde Park, NY. Does anyone know of jobs to combine my backgrond in Chemistry and Culinary Arts?
    Any help would be greatly appreciated.
    jude_mat@yahoo.com

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  12. @Dr.Oaks: What is a "hick up", some sort of backcountry refreshment? Did you mean "hiccup". Also, it's "sous-chefs". It's called SpellCheck, man!

    @Anonymous: I know an unemployed yet handy PhD chemist who was turned down by Home Depot (no positions).

    @judem: Check out the mega-food companies like McDonald's, ConAgra, and Coco-Cola. Do you know how to formulate and run GC/MS?

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  13. Thanks, Yes I can easily work on GC/MS, I never thought about checking into those companies.
    I realy appreciate your feedback.

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  14. That is a great idea. I never thought that there are jobs combining food and chemistry. Anyone would give an advice for someone with Asian Studies and MS Chemistry?

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looks like Blogger doesn't work with anonymous comments from Chrome browsers at the moment - works in Microsoft Edge, or from Chrome with a Blogger account - sorry! CJ 3/21/20